95 Octane Fuel

i drove mine practically off boost with octane booster in it for nearly 6 months driving around changing gear b4 3000rpm until i had the oppertunity to get it mapped by Andy........ as said above the cost of getting it mapped soon it will be about 1000 yoyo all in , if you don't get it mapped soon and the engine goes then you have price of repair and then getting her mapped.....so id do it ASAP
 
When I was getting my RB5 remapped on our 95 with Pat Herborn up North, he said he had never seen an ECU with timing as retarded as mine, as a result of running our fuel. On the basis of the timing he reckoned our fuel could only be 93 odd octane. This tallys with some independent test results that I have seen for Irish fuel, average samples were coming in about 93.5 octane.

As for different garages, as it turns out, all of the major brands seem to share petrol so there is no real difference between suppliers. Shell V-power being the exception but that seems to be the same stuff as every where else but they add a pile of detergents to it down the docks.

The only real difference is in how long the petrol has been sitting in the tanks, octane drops over time as do oxygen levels, it's called gumming, so the thing to do is to go to stations with a high turn over. I got caught over the summer and had to use a pump outside a shop in the west. One of these ones that have rusted into the road and have the old mechanical dials.

I only put in 10 to get me up the road a few miles and I swear, when I went to pay, your man had forgotten he sold petrol. I handed him the note and he looked at me, and I said 'for the petrol' and he still looked at me, and I said 'the pump outside' and there was a pause and the 'oh yes, sorry, forgot'. Anyway, needless to say the knocklink woke up immediately and was so busy that I had to drive completely off boost until I got some petrol that had been refined this century.

At the time I was doing the mapping, I didn't have a reliable source for booster so I stuck to 95 and went for a link ECU to try and maximise power with our fuel. Even with that Pat reckoned the best he could safely get for the car even with all of my mods was about 260 Hp with 300 easily available if I was prepared to map with booster (which I wasn't at the time).

I used to have an import that was not mapped for 95 and it ran like a pig if I ever filled up with anything other than super plus (back when you could still buy it), after I sold it the engine eventually blew up on 95.

I am currently running an Evo FQ 340 that is also set up to run on 97 octane but can safely cope with 95 albeit with a big drop in power. The car is the same as UK spec Imprezas, it has a high and low octane map, on the high map it produces 345 HP however on our <95 at Westward she is putting out 300 dead.

It is a big loss, and the same is true for any UK Imprezas. I am currently running Lucas with 95 all the time and I have to say it is a big improvement, still won't get all the way to 345 but I'd say she's a bit closer, we'll find out on the 18th next month.

Incidently, anybody running PPP is wasting their time if they are running 95 as the benefits in the map are only fully available on 97 RON. On our fuel, PPP cars will revert to the low octane map which is virtually unchanged and they really won't feel any quicker.

Fitting a knocklink is essential if you are running a fuel lower than that specified for the car. The alternative is to never turn on the stereo and listen for it yourself. Get one of the ones built into the binnacle as they are a lot better looking, Performance Subaru do one that I put in mine and it looks great.

Otherwise, as the lads said, the only thing to do is either buy a UK spec car that can safely cope with our fuel, albeit at a reduced performance, or remap the ECU for our fuel. Don't just buy and drive as you will not be able to stop yourself using the power and you will hurt your engine. Every Jap car that I know of that has been driven in any way hard on 95 has gone bang sooner or later, and there is no point having an STI unless you drive it. Booster helps but without a remap it'll still probably go bang eventually.
 
RB5419,

i have a 2002 Sti UK and run it on the 95RON fuel here and have never had a problem?! :dunno:
Shell V-power being the exception but that seems to be the same stuff as every where else but they add a pile of detergents to it down the docks.
What detergents do you mean as I fill it with V-Power whenever I can.
And do you write for a living?... I read you Impreza Vs Evo and very good and now this, very impressed with your indepth answers :thumbsup:
 
No, actually I talk for a living. I'd love a gig as a motoring hack but sadly so far no offers. Don't think I'd be bothered doing it in Ireland however, don't think I'd be able to handle reviewing the Daewoo Matiz somehow.

I don't know precisely what detergents they put in Shell V-Power. I do know that the base fuel bears no relation to the new UK or European V-Power which is 100 RON. Our V-Power is standard 95 with the additives that are designed to clean the valve gear etc.

When I was first re-mapping my RB5, I was running a tank of V-Power and Pat Herborn found it extremely intolerant of ignition advance. It was so bad he refueled while mapping with regular 95 and was able to wind up the timing by three degrees towards TDC, resulting in about 15 extra horsepower.

Your 2002 Uk spec STI will be fine (if slow) on 95 but I wouldn't bother with the V-Power myself, once in a while to give it a clean perhaps but otherwise I'd save your money, or spend it on booster.

Uk cars have to be capable of running on 95 since it's available everywhere. Accordingly, they run two maps, high and low octane. It makes sense if you think about it, my Evo is putting out 345 Hp from a two litre engine and comes with a three year, unlimited mileage pan-European warranty. It is running 1.65 bar and is fairly highly strung dynamically. The only way that the car can be reliable at this level is to ensure that the ECU is adaptive and has the capacity to keep the engine within safe limits.

Detonation is simply not an option if they are going to have to replace engines under warranty. Therefore, what they seem to do is to start the ECU out on the high map, but if the knock sensors pick up det, the ECU immediately retards timing. If this occurs repeatedly the ECU retards further and will switch to the low octane map. It will then err on the side of caution and stay on the low map until the levels gradually creep back up.

The ECU uses a very complicated multiplier algorithim that determines how much ignition advance to apply. This determination is based on average levels logged by the ECU. As a result, the return to full power is a slow process, much slower than the drop down to the low maps. This means that one tank of rubbish fuel will not be offset by one tank of good stuff, it can take a few refills before you get back up to full strength. This process can be accelerated by resetting the ECU but even at that, you will only come out in the middle of the high octane map and the timing will still be a few degrees off maximum. With the right fuel, this will climb back up gradually with some spirited driving.

Imprezas apparently have a shortcut whereby after a reset if you hold them in gear (ideally against the brake) at about 0.6 bar for a few seconds, the ECU will shortcut the learning curve and advance the timing all the way, I don't know if this actually works but I have heard a few tuners say it does.

The only way of ensuring consistent performance is to use good fuel, using just bucketloads of bad fuel will result in performance loss in Uk cars, as I experienced down the west, however in Jap imports, you'll need the bucket to collect the tears.

Evo Magazine recently did a few comparisons in the Uk at Dynodynamics. They used a Golf Gti and an M5 and ran different fuels on a dyno. They ran three full tanks of each fuel through the cars before testing on the rollers to give the ECUs a chance to adapt. They discovered the Gti was down by as much as 20% Hp when using 95. Interestingly it made no difference whatsoever to the M5.

This actually makes sense. The Gti, like us, is turbocharged and therefore running a lot harder and hotter to get its power out of its four cylinders. Low octane is a real problem in this environment as det directly results from heat and pressure. On low octane, the ECU feels the knocking and winds back the boost, ignition timing and also enriches the mix to cool the cylinders. The result is power loss and poor economy.

The M5 on the otherhand is a 5 litre V10 that is actually already pegged back to 500 Hp in order to save its transmission. Low octane does not bother it as det is not an issue as the engine is actually nowhere near its full potential, even at 500 Hp.

Evo didn't test Imprezas or Evos but Dynodynamics said that similar percentage losses apply to us as to Golfs and other turbo engined cars. They also said our cars express brand preference with 8 out of ten Evos going for Shell with the Scoobs apparently liking BP, go figure.

These figures accord with my own results from Westward with power down 12% odd on 95 RON. Torque fares a lot better with only about a 5% drop at over 400Nm. At 1.65 bar, the Evo's low octane map is more interested in timing than boost. Imprezas are a bit different, I have heard reports of boost as low as 0.9 bar in cars running crappy petrol.

Running booster really helps. That said, I couldn't say that my perception is so finely honed that I would notice a 12% shift one way or the other. Psychologically however, I feel a lot happier knowing it's in the tank and the car is running smoother and with less det. At the end of the day once the car is safe and feels good, dyno results are irrelevant. You will only notice the extra Hp at high revs and only then if you are going head to head with somebody with similar power.

That was the point of my earlier post, the difference between the performance of the RB5 and FQ340 on the rollers is huge, on the road head to head it's huge, however, from the driver's seat there is very little in it. It is the last one that matters though so don't believe the hype.
 
well rb419, i'm genuinely glad i asked that question, and you answered it better than most mechanics, and i agree with anton, u dont write boring, maybe i'll dictate to you from now on :p

Cheers again
Morgan

P.S. I hate fuel companies now GRRRRR :angry:
 
hi rb5 419 ,i have a job for you,why dont you post up forthnightly or monthly on a car topic of your chose.
i love reading your stuff so imformative and interesting,it would be like waiting on your new copy of top gear or the like
every few weeks.

thanks
 
Thanks lads, I'll have to start charging.

Seriously though, our crappy fuel was far and away the biggest problem I encountered when I went modding so it's a bit of a sensitive subject for me. We'll have to start lobbying our politicans to drop the ridiculous octane tax on Irish petrol. It is bizzare that now that we finally have an economy that has brought shed loads of high performance cars to our shores that we no longer have the fuel on sale to run them properly. The exchequer and the petrol companies really have cut off their noses to spite their faces on this one.

Heres hoping Tesco will bite the bullet and start selling 99 RON like it was rumoured they would.
 
hmmm, an on-line petition perhaps?

there are plenty of irish performance car websites out there, get them all to petition under the same format on a regional basis
 
no idea to be honest but i would expect a huge number of signatures. just had a google of site and found these and checked the number of registered members

ISDC 167 registered members
Irish Performance Car 751 registered members
Driver.ie 7,790 registered members
Racershaven 6,170 registered members
BMW_Driver.net 299 registered members

i'm sure there are plenty of others aswell
 
would defo get it mapd, either just for 95ron or 95 plus booster, ttm in galway are ment to be fairly good and do tek3 maps, they will know if your 99 can be mapped using this soft ware or not, depends on the model ecu you have. i had 00 sti run mapped for 95 only by andy f and found it excellant :thumbsup:
 
rb5419

noticed your reply there about your evo being 345bhp on 97 and 300bhp on 95, by 97 do you mean 95 plus booster???? i had my 00 sti mapped for 95 only by andy f, it had the basic upgrades like straight through exhaust filter etc etc 1.25 boost, it was very quick, i had been told that i was down a lot on power by not using booster by a lot of people and andy f was very pro booster, so in the end i decided i would get mapped again and this time for booster, so emailed andy f and asked him would i see much difference and he replied that i prob wouldnt see much difference and bhp gains be 10-15bhp max... so i didnt see that i was loosing much by being mapped for 95 only, :ponder: do evos suffer worse than scoobys with 95???????? :ponder:
 
Hey Ken
it's not that Evo's suffer more or less, every engine will have a differen't
custom mapp giving differn't results.

Normally AndyF would strongly advise using the octane booster averaging
20 bhp aprox in gains but i can see his point. If travells from Scotland maps your
car and can only get an extra 10 - 15 bhp your not going to be happy forking over
$$$$$ for that.

I reckon when you get your next set of mods & need a new mapp that would
be the ideal time to get mapped with booster.

Niall.
 
To be honest, I don't know if the power figures quoted by Mitsubishi are on 97 or higher RON fuel. I have seen quite a few independent dyno results for FQ340s and they have all been around about the 350 mark, all of them running Uk top brand fuel.

Inside the filler cap there is sticker that says 'Use super plus unleaded or optionally 95 RON',as much as to say 'run on super but you can run on regular if you must'.

In any event, the point I was making is that there is a 10-15% difference in performance between the low and high octane map. The car will absolutely run on the low map on 95, whether or not it will move up to the high map or all the way up the high map on 97, I simply don't know. On other Evos using Uk top brands which are all about 99 or 100 RON these days the figures are at or above the manufacturer's claimed power.

Booster only gets you so far, and it depends on which one you use. Most tuners will find some advance possible with booster however it will never get you as far as proper performance fuel. There is a lot going on in addition to RON.

I did my mapping up North, with Performance Subaru, Pat Herborn mapped after Jonathan McKeary had modded the car. Pat said with my set up, IHI Turbo, stainless manifold + uppipe, open neck decat downpipe + centre section, Walbro race pump, Mafless stainless K + N induction kit, Link ECU etc. that 300 was there if the fuel could be improved. Without proper fuel however he reckoned 260 was about all that was available.

Most of this was down to RON but there are other fuel features such as O2 levels etc that also play a part. If you want to find out about the other properties of fuel that are relevant to power, have a look at Sunoco's web site and see some of the crazy petrol you could buy if you owned an oil company.

GT Performance told me that when Andy was mapping his car with Lucas, it was worth seven degrees (George please confirm) so that has to be more than 10 or 15 Hp.

Each car is different and reacts differently to both fuel and mapping, they're like pets and food.

In the end the instruction I gave to the lads was to map what was in the tank with the emphasis being on driveablity and reliability. At the end of the day it is how the car drives that matters, I have driven a few monster turbo nut mobiles in my time and no thanks. The nothing, nothing, bang delivery is not for me, especially mid corner in the wet. Some people forget that Evos and Imprezas are as much if not more about handling than horsepower. If you want to go for huge power, buy a Skyline or Supra or whatever.

I'd do the same if I were you, concentrate on where you want the torque and how you want the car to deliver its power. Above all though, keep it safe, you won't notice 20 Hp anywhere near as much as you'll notice your pistons on the road in your rear view mirror.
 
Tried searching loads of places but couldnt find anywhere that sais exactly what detergents go into v power fuel, just that they clean engine internals..
p.s To hell with Clarkson, get RB on top gear!! :thumbsup:
 
"GT Performance told me that when Andy was mapping his car with Lucas, it was worth seven degrees (George please confirm) so that has to be more than 10 or 15 Hp."

hi Oisin,

when Andy was mapping my car we got talking about octane boost (he asked me where to get the lucas as he said it does the trick just like NF but is a lot cheaper)
we were talking about price-v-power gains and he said that there is only so much he can do with 95ron fuel. And i said sometimes its like talking to brick wall with some lads as they say its too expensive and dont want it.

thats when he told me about a similar customer he had where he was were refusing to map with booster and Andy could only get so much power out of the car and told your man that if he wanted more he had to use booster. eventually he agreed and Andy threw in a bottle of NF and sent your man off for a drive to get the octane to run thru the system.

when he got back and Andy set-up the laptop etc. on it, the ecu had advanced by 7 degrees compared to it before the booster had been put in and the lad could even feel the difference in the car before Andy re-mapped it again.

andy went on to tell me that he cannot understand why lads go out and spend €€€€'s on FMIC's, exhausts and induction kits etc. and then whinge about a few €'s for octane boost. :wall:

thats basically the whole story :)

George
 
what is generally regarded as the best octane booster on the market?

please excuse my ignorance but where would i purchase it aswell

thanks
 
Hey Wasps you have 2 choice's really

NF or Lucas
Our club sposnosrs can suplly Lucas which is the preffered choice
on this site do to cost and avaliability

One is a as good as the other except NF is aprox twice as dear as Lucas.

Niall.
 
Thanks for the reply George, sorry I thought it was your car, but at least the gist was about right.

As for which is better, you'd need to dyno them under pretty scientific conditions to find out for sure. I can tell you that I have been using both NF and Lucas lately but without a boost gauge or knocklink in my Evo I couldn't even guess which is which. That said, I'm sure I couldn't even tell if there was any in it if I hadn't put in myself.

I can however tell you that Lucas is a lot cheaper. Also it's from a major US producer and it is guaranteed to be safe for cats and sensors. In the land where you get sued for everything you say that turns out to be wrong, that has got to be worth something.

Anymore yet George?

That answers the 'where' question.
 
hi Oisin,

no not yet. the stupid fooks put the wrong address on the last shipment so it got returned! :angry:

it was sent again last week so will be a few more weeks before i have some again. ill put a box aside for ya as soon as it arrives and give ya a shout. :thumbsup:

thanks,
George
 
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